The general notion is that America is a country founded on christian morals and ethics.
There is reference to God in the Declaration of Independence. Our presidents take their oath with their hand on the Bible. The most recent Supreme Court justice even put her left hand on the Bible held by her mother at her swearing in.
So if it is good enough for the goose why then is the gander put under such scrutiny?
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As for the ACLU, what can I say about people who defend child rapists and documents that lure children into their cars. NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). The ACLU is the most disgusting agency I have ever seen. They don't care what they do to the American people, as long as they win their case. Lawyers, ugh!
Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [bold text, mine]
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.
So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all U.S. Treaties do (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")
Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.
Service? The cross is very appropriate for those who fought and died in WW1. I seriously
doubt if there were any Budhists then in action. It is about time that the ACLU had
their wings clipped and told to mind their own
rotten agenda.
Second clarification: The President is not required to swear on a bible. John Quincy Adams, Theodore Roosevelt, and Lyndon Johnson didn'y use bibles.
Before you judge if the ACLU or any other group has gone too far in a relugous freedom case, here's a simple test. Reverse the roles. Would you feel comfortable if you were a practicing Christian and when you went to your town green you saw ritual pentacle laid out in the middle and the local courthouse had the Rule of Three inscribed on the lintel. Would you feel uncomfortable? Like you were not welcome on public land or not respected by the government?
All religions (and lack of faith) are equal in the eyes of the government. Christianity doesn't get to claim any kind of special rights. Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean that we don't need to fix things now.
But to speak to your points specifically.
You are right. The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document in the strictest sense. The Supreme Court has generally held that the Declaration does not have the force of law, and no words in the Declaration can give rise to legal rights independently. One major justification for this view is that the Declaration’s purpose was to separate the United States from Britain, not to prescribe legal rights for the people living in the colonies.
However, the Declaration has been used in aiding the Court to interpret other laws. For example, in early constitutional law, the Court held that the Constitution was the supreme law of the land as the highest expression of intent of the people. The Court relied on the Declaration’s language about the rights of the “people,” as compared with the rights of the states. Another example, in an 1830 case, the Court, interpreting a wills and estates question of New York law, held that a child born in New York before July 4, 1776, and whose parents moved him to Britain, was not a citizen of the United States. That is, the Court determined that July 4, 1776 was the date on which the sovereignty of Great Britain ceased.
I suppose that in its simplest form the D.o.I. can be used/mis-used/ignored when convenient.
You are right. The president is NOT required by any law to lay hands on the Holy Bible during a swearing in ceremony. Again, we are faced with a case of national tradition. There have been several cases in which the Bible was not used and some cases where the Bible wasn't even enough!
Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when taking the oath in 1901. Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman, and Richard Nixon swore the oath on TWO Bibles. (Maybe Nixon should have used 3 or 4..hahahahahah) John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law. Lyndon B. Johnson was sworn in on a Roman Catholic missal on Air Force One. Washington kissed the Bible afterwards,and subsequent presidents followed suit, up to Harry Truman.
I don't feel as if anyone is judging the ACLU for their religious freedom litigation. I think the issue is whether or not the ACLU is propagating this case to be more than it actually is. There were many faults here. The land was not private property. The cross was erected without government permission. There is no marker stating the purpose of the cross. The list goes on.
As for your hypothetical situation, I personally would have a problem with a pentacle being laid out on the green assuming it blocked the actual function of said green. The cross in question is not limiting the capability of the land where it sits. It is harming no one, in other words. If the pentacle, as suggested, were hung out of the way of pedestrian traffic or was in no way obstructing the use of the green, it could stay.
I am a Christian so I would feel equally at liberty to stand right in front of it praying against it's presence and the stronghold it had on the person(s) who put it there. That, my friend, is the liberty and freedom our unofficial document which recognizes no religion suggests we have.
you can track the path of christany through history,and its a bloody path.the crusades,the forced religion on peoples of the world that lead to their ruin.the incas,the native americans hunderds of peoples across the globe, all in the name of who? god.more people have died because of religion across the world than anything else.thats a wonderfull thing isnt it?YOU BELEIVE IN MY GOD OR DIE!!!
i dont know how you feel but if this allmighty god sent his followers across the ocean to save my savage soul buy bringing me VD,smallpox ,yellow feaver and who knows what other wonderfull little surprises i personaly would have rather took my chances with out him.seems they did all right before these wacos waveing their little book of fairy tales over their heads showed up trying to tell me how wonderfull this god is as my fellow tribesmen and their familys and children die a terrible slow death.
There is a major difference between the two.
I would not go so far as to say there are no true Christians today. I will admit that none are 2000 years old. I know people that proclaim to be Christians that never miss a church service. I know others who never attend church who are the most unselfish, loving, and must be what God calls Christian. If we have to be 2000 years old to get into Heaven, the gates are closed by now. I hope they closed the gates to Hell at the same time, don't you?
exodus 21-7,cor 11-14,19-24,exodus 31-15 and thats just some of the things that are in the bible ,
The initial questions were (and I quote), "Has the separation of church and state gone too far? Is this a land issue or a religious issue? Has the ACLU gone too far yet again? Is this the making of a litigation nightmare?"
So far the argument has become about what Christianity really is, if there is a God, why anyone would follow a faith practice, etc.
Are we really that simple minded that we can't view this from the initial point of view?
Yes, the separation has gone too far. The cross was originally erected on this piece of land to memorialize fallen soldiers. It was not put there to bring about ethical/moral issues about who was or wasn't right in WWI. Men and women died and this cross was a rather generic way of giving them respect in their memory.
This is a land issue. The cross was put on public property paid for and maintained by the government.
The ACLU often goes too far if there is one ounce of national media to be gained.
This is the making of a huge litigation nightmare for a number of reasons.
Come on folks. Challenge yourselves. Speak up. Think about something other than your own agenda.
with no parsimonious pretense, I submit a paraphrasical adaptation of Mark Antony eulogizing murdered Julius Caesar.
Delivered in a syrupy Lamar County drawl:
"Ladies, Gentlemen and Anonymous Tearists, lend me them-thar plugged up ears" and "lend me them-thar blind eyes."
Sorry Bard!
When Mr. Odom solicited commentaries by SHOUTING, "GO!", "some" of the usual Tearist crowd charged of to various websites like http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm to quickly harvest 'cut 'n paste' wordy entries as their own. Sad!
Deep thinkers with shallow minds and no hint of orginality!
Where are the in-depth analyses of the issues?
To be informed and to be able to discuss the history behind Docket 08-472: Ken L. Salazar, Secretary of the Interior, et al., Petitioners v. Frank Buono, PLEASE visit the following site: http://tinyurl.com/mv2864
I suggest skipping 'Briefs and Documents' for now and go to Pre-Argument Articles\Background to fully understand the case. Good reading!
Side note:
In 1966, while driving lost on the unpaved trails in Mojave National Preserve, my old VW sputtered out of gasoline.
It stopped close to an ordinary wooden cross monument.
Who would have thought 43 years later the existence of that same old cross would be discussed in the Supreme Court?
Will the Geriatric Gang Of 9 make a "clear" decision? Not likely!
To the Lamar County Tearists:
Don't confuse Ancient Mark Antony of old Roman times with Modern Mark Anthony, the Latin Lover and current husband of that wanton warbler, Jennifer Lopez. Just helping 'em out folks!
Kudos to Ms. Tolley. Keepin' 'ENOCK' in tow!
I'm off the Soap-Box. Time for my ENSURE and prune juice.
Call N. Alcars
"i'v never been to church a day in my life"...
That statement is most likely the truth. I will expound further an state emphatically, your illiterate rambling, poor spelling and lack of any composition skills, confirms that you have spent the same amount of time seeking any formal education.
Climb to the top of your coconut tree and take a break.
Your Pan troglodyte name 'bubba' is of arboreal anthropoid origin and your displayed diminished faculties exhibited by your keyboard antics proves you are progeny of the Evolutionary Process. Have you met Bubbles the chimp who once shared domicle with Michael Jackson?
You are a poor representative of any self-respecting Georgia Redneck for exposing such unhuman qualities and outright dumbness on any blog. Shame on you! Prayers needed.
TBK, Sr.
"Shining the light of TRUTH on one idiot at a time"
Go back and read #3. There really is power in the cross and apparently Satan is using his children to attempt to stop that power from pouring out over the land. However, in his attempts to cease the power from flowing, he has actually increased it over a whole nation.
Odd; but the ACLU may have already been dealt with. In its try to silence the power of the cross, it has unleashed the power of the cross a million times over or more. Just think about how many people are reminded of the power of the cross today that weren't aware of it yesterday.
I'll join you too #3 KPIST with another, Praise be to Jesus Christ!
All you nonbelievers are witnessing the power of another OLD RUGGED CROSS.
Additionally, it is a Christian's responsibility to tell you about Jesus Christ. And yes we are all sinners, even the very best of us. The difference is that our sins are forgiven. How about yours?
Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
The 7th day is Saturday. The 1st day is Sunday.
Well Said!
Maybe there is hope for us after all!
May God bless us all.
Repugnicans and Democraps.
God Bless!!
Some of you use your words as if you were an expert witness presenting a case to the jury.
Please let me suggest that you return to the study chambers for a bit more research. Might I suggest you start with Bible origin. "The Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies."
P.S. I'm no expert either, but, with some things you don't need to be.
AMEN SISTA!!!!!
I would much rather see a cross then to have someone knocking on my door (or window) every other day!! Let me be in peace.......I let you live in peace!!
Open your G.I. Joe comic book and find an Army tank.
You will notice a large raised reinforced domed area with a long barrel sticking out, that is a turret. Remember it!
Now if your lovely wife is glassy eyed, drooling, spitting, shaking her head, wildly jerking her arms ,has facial tics, grimaces, grunts, barks, and is spitting, slapping, screaming, and LOUDLY CURSING YOU, she is DRUNK and PIST off at you. She doesn't have 'turret syndrome'. Remember it!
Somewhere in the recesses of your 'left brain, you were searching for a word to articulate meaning ,"a severe neurological disorder". WORD: Tourette Syndrome. Remember it!
Your disparging inference using the word 'retard' displays ignorance learned by years of viewing TV, especially, HBO.
If you must use a word of that order, try to be PC and use 'Handicapped' or 'Developmentally Challenged". Remember it!
HBO: REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER. Forget it! Forget it!
Call N. Alcars,
Original 1960's Kalifornia Flower Child
Now Old Retired Conservative Georgia Geezer
"Shining the light of TRUTH on one idiot at a time" are words he lives by. Watch out!
It was considerate of you to mention Moses in the same paragraph with Daddy. He often preaches about Moses.
You have been busy today! OCD? Off your meds?
Rev. T.B.K, Jr.
#2. Former employee Frank Buono needs a hobby and made a poor choice.
#3. ACLU. Really, do any of us feel the ACLU is a threat? They crossed into being a circus act years ago.
#4. The original intent of this marker seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. It was meant to be a memorial to WWI soldiers. How like an attention seeking Californian with too much time on his hands and a hankering for the spotlight to subvert the purpose.
While the state of California deals with rolling blackouts, crippling debt, illegal immigration, the loss of the American Dream and a crime rate most of us will hopefully never experience, the ACLU and Former Employee Buono twist up their pantyhose over a cross.
Yeah Christian. You are jewish. Jesus is jewish.
Imflabb R. Ghastid
"There's hope with the Pope". I just found this bottle in the creek today so this is all I have read so far. In my next bottle, they promise to tell me about the other commandments that were left on the mountain. After I drink it I'll tell you, FIRST HAND about them too. Good Night now, I am feeling a little Sleepy, Dopey, Droopy. Let me rephrase that, I will be incarcerated for molesting The Seven Dwarfs. Nite, nite!
Tell me; did you sallow a Thesaurus at some point in life? Are you related to Bill O'Reilly? Pay me no mind. I'm just pushing buttons because I've got a secret!
It was not put in place as a religious symbol.
The cross was not erected for only Christians and does not infer any religious preference. The original simple cross was erected in 1934 by soldiers in memory of dead WWI soldiers and stood for 60 years before becoming part of the Mojave National Preserve in 1994.
Common sense will dictate a benign ruling, otherwise, the ACLU will attempt to have the rest of the War Memorials in the US covered.
The plywood will be removed from the cross next Summer. That is the concensus of all my good neighbors at the Last Chance Nursing Home.
The ACLU will slither back to its dark hole waiting for a new opportunity to sue trying to take away another one of our FREEDOMS!
Hip-Hip-Hooray for all the old geezers on the SCOTUS!
Call N. Alcars
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Therefore you are inexcusable, Of a man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Satan has never won a battle fought strictly within the spiritual realm. His reign over the world system is dependent upon the weakness of human nature, the power of sin and fear of death.
If he is allowed to reign unopposed, the resulting chaos, destruction, and oppression forms a self-imposed impenetrable barrier to communing with God, destroys any sense of family and community, and isolates us to solitary damnation.
Satan is ultimately responsible for every death there ever was upon the face of the earth.
If you participate in his works, you share a portion of that responsibility. Like stories of child abuse, the victim becomes the perpetrator.
Agnostic, Confrontational, Ludicrous, Useless
You just gotta respect proper acronyms, huh?
Yes, the USA financial situation sucks right now which is all the more reason to ease the burden on the middle class. Our health care situation is broken due to the exploitation brought on by rapacious capitalism is why now reform and a public option is an urgent necessity. The last I check the North Georgia flood victims were getting relief from numerous sources including the federal government.
The rest of your posting confuses me so I don’t know how to respond.
You might want to know that feet taste better with ketchup. A matter of fact, everything taste better with ketchup except ketchup, but you know, there will always be somebody who wants mustard.
But no need with that name evidently you have caught a mess or two.
The cross is there because it's as universal a symbol as this culture has to mark death spots.
Roadside crosses have a couple of different origin points. Some of them started with Spanish settlement into the Southwest. Particularly in Catholic faith traditions, the cross is meant to signify the place where the soul left the body before it could be consecrated -- sudden deaths that were too quick to have a priest deliver the last rites.
It becomes a kind of a portal where people can go and speak to the dead person. They come here and they leave things for the person.
"be liberal...but...not stupid" is an Oxymoron
OXYMORON:
a figure of speech by which alocution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or
“to make haste slowly.”
Something for ALL Tearist Liberals to contemplate!
Call N. Alcars, P.O.L.E.
Professor of Liberal Enlightenment
...the exploitation brought on by rapacious capitalism...
When Mahmoud Ahmadinejad railed at the United Nations General Assembly on 9/23/09, he too whined about "rapacious capitalism".
See a pattern? Agreeing with that NUT?
Want to see over 100,000 crosses? Take a peek!
http://www.abmc.gov/home.php
American Battle Monuments Commission site.
Their dead bodies lie under CROSSES.
Where does your body lie?
Call N. Alcars
You really have fun with this stuff; don't you?
WHATEVER GAVE YOU THAT IDEA?
I bet you are giggling the whole time you peck that key board.
YES! MANIACIAL "PARROT" MOSES PECKS BETTER!
I can picture that big Grin,SOMEDAYS IT'S EAR TO EAR!
and I don't even know who you are..
AN OLD GEEZER IN THE LAST STOP NURSING HOME.
Tell me; did you sallow a Thesaurus at some point in life?
NO..BUT, I'VE HAD TO SWALLOW..NAH...I'VE HAD TO EAT ENOUGH OF MY WORDS TO FILL A DICTIONARY.
A SALLOW COMPLEXION I HAVE AT TIMES!
Are you related to Bill O'Reilly?
NO! HE IS A BLOVIATING PUZZLEWITTED PINHEAD!
I'M RELATED TO BILL O'WRIGHTS, BILL O'SELL, BILL O'LADING; BILL O'FARE AND O'BILLME.
Pay me no mind. I'm just pushing buttons because I've got a secret!
Tryntudu Aghudjob WORKED HARD ON THAT SECRET!
This should answer ALL your questions.
oops..IS AN ACCIDENT..WANT TO USE, Bohrnta Wright?
Call N. Alcars
My body lies under my brain which listens to my heart and if that makes me a tearist than so be it. To be a person who chooses to defend an indifferent approach by using a humorist intellectual elitist attitude is no longer an option for me. Yes, at times I slip, but even while doing so I know it’s the wrong path required to make a difference.
Response:
Enoc, that non-pragmatic posting reveals MORE than a hint of subdued resignation that is uniquely uncharacteristic of your past performances.
Are you playing 'possum? Is some fraudster using your name? Are you ill? I'm genuinely concerned and sorely miss your usual "humorist intellectual elitist attitude". Your post had to reference you. Because, I'm no elitist, just an old veteran dozing through my days at the Last Stop Nursing Home.
Enoc wrote:
"War from the start is a failure of humanity to resolve its disputes by practical and peaceful measures."
That statement rings semi-true. History has proven DIPLOMACY does not prevent wars and DIPLOMACY certainly doesn't win wars. Might Is Right! says Ragnar Redbeard(real name). Weak countries bargain via the diplomatic route as an imperiative requirement simply for the reason that WEAKNESS will never prevail.
From a practical point: Countries that guide military power responsibly will always be strong and win their wars after attempts at diplomacy fails.
WAR IS HELL!: credited to General W.T. Sherman
"Sherman was wrong. I'm telling you I find peace is hell."
Quote: President Harry S. Truman.
Both men were responsible for wreaking horrendous death and destruction upon citizens of the World. Gen. William "Burn Georgia" Sherman and President Harry "Bombs Away" Truman" seem to have differing opinions. It is a quandry, isn't it? Who do you believe?
Grave crosses are merely symbols acknowledging death, nothing more nothing less. Question: If you were given absolute power to remove ALL crosses from ALL graves and to remove ALL crosses from ALL military memorials, tell us WHAT would be your APPROPRIATE symbol?
We will listen to Think Music from JEOPARDY awaiting your answer.
dum..dee..dumm..dumm..dumm dee..dumm
Call N. Alcars
I lied.
I died.
Moses received press from Solo and myself on the White House -vs- Fox News blog. I try to use Ol' Moses when I can. Also, I believe my pastor Rev. Truth B. Known, Jr. mentioned Moses on some comment. Rev. TBK, Sr. is the better preacher. When Sr. gets to 'shoutin and sweatin', his sermons put those of Elmer Gantry and Marjoe Gortner to shame. Amen!
Got to get busy. Lights are out at 11 PM here at the Last Days Nursing Home and I have to make the long trip out to our wooden 2 holer outdoor toilet. It's cold out there. Gotta run!
Big Bro Call